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#8248894 Aug 05, 2013 at 10:23 PM · Edited 9 years ago
980 Posts
Well since I will no longer be raiding with you guys for the forseeable future here are somethings that I have noticed that *need* to change.

1. Communication- The communication in this guild makes a troggs undergarments smell fresh and new. When a fight is explained there are 2 things that are supposed to happen 1. Fixton, Dyna or Jinky says something in vent and 2. EVERYONE ELSE IS FREAKN SILENT. Those who continually do this, I cordially ask you to stop, you know exactly who you are, or you should. The reason for this is to properly explain how the guild is going to attempt the fight and when you have 3+ different opinions and voices talking over vent or in /raid it gets confusing. There have been times I have had to whisper Jinky and Fixton to ask them what I am doing again because it has been changed 3 times by 3 different people. So end the end let the people who are in charge of the raid, regardless of if its Retro Raid or Progression do there job and explain the fights.

2. Vent vs /raid- Thanks to Sio we have the ability to use this nice thing called vent. Please use it. There is an understandment that occasionally you cant pop in and use it all the time. However if you can not use it Please refrain from trying to direct the rest of the raid who are using it. This leads to miscommunication like for instance Ulduars raid for the Disarmed achive. Someone in raid chat said Blow CDs after 1 arm was down and everyone in vent was yelling to wait till they re-spawned, however do to the miscommunication he was killed outside the timer so no one in the raid at that moment got the achive. I get it sometimes miscommunication happens however if you can't be in vent for whatever reason, please don't try and give conflicting orders cause it will just get messy and no one wins.

3. Addons- Use them for raids however please keep the recount/shaka numbers outside of /raid or vent. I doubt anyone really cares how great your doing. Good job now why did you die before everyone else? Addons like these are great for gauging yourself and others however if you feel that the other dps is really low please make a comment to them in a private whisper cause you might find out that they came in with say a Safari's Hat on by accident or are still in Healing gear while they are DPSing. Or just that they would rather help out and get the boss down as opposed to being the best that ever was...cause you know thats what pet battles are for.

/end rant.

Those are some of the things that I've noticed and have let stew up a little bit and it feels good to get it off my chest.

Anyways good luck on raids and such, on the rare occasion that I end up having a Friday/Saturday night off I'll pop in and help out if needed since you know flex raiding should be on its way soon.


Edit: I don't mean to seem overly rude but I felt that something needed to be said on this subject since I've noticed the communication issues are not only limited to just raid events.
"What is this world twisted?" ~LVG
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#8249916 Aug 06, 2013 at 04:49 AM
Ensign
398 Posts
#8248894 Durell wrote:

Well since I will no longer be raiding with you guys for the forseeable future here are somethings that I have noticed that *need* to change.



3. Addons- Use them for raids however please keep the recount/shaka numbers outside of /raid or vent. I doubt anyone really cares how great your doing. Good job now why did you die before everyone else? Addons like these are great for gauging yourself and others however if you feel that the other dps is really low please make a comment to them in a private whisper cause you might find out that they came in with say a Safari's Hat on by accident or are still in Healing gear while they are DPSing. Or just that they would rather help out and get the boss down as opposed to being the best that ever was...cause you know thats what pet battles are for.



I'm with Coggs on that. Even if i haven't been in game for quite some time, i have played since just before LK - i've seen my share of this stuff. And i'm going to be blunt about it: if you're posting recount to show how good or bad people are.... STICK IT. No one cares. No one worth being in a raid, that is. This attitude to "show people" that they're "bad" need to die alone in a corner.
Beebeep!
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#8250018 Aug 06, 2013 at 05:16 AM
1098 Posts
There are select and specific reasons where recount/skada may need to be linked. Usually it's one of the less known features, like the death log. I could also see when a raid leader may need to know he strength of a healer or dispeller, and the raid is split so they couldn't tell on their own. In such circumstances, whispers or a private channel.

I disagree with a lot in that I don't see why performing well has to come at a cost of success. Everyone should be trying their best. But I do agree with the sentiment of not showing off. You're there for a specific reason, a job, and you should focus as such. Also, it's that whole being respectful.

And speaking of, you can't just assume that people are doing some of this on purpose. A gentle reminder shouldn't be a punishment, but they should listen and change after receiving it.
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#8250164 Aug 06, 2013 at 05:52 AM
Lieutenant
955 Posts
#8248894 Durell wrote:

Well since I will no longer be raiding with you guys for the forseeable future here are somethings that I have noticed that *need* to change.

1. Communication- The communication in this guild makes a troggs undergarments smell fresh and new. When a fight is explained there are 2 things that are supposed to happen 1. Fixton, Dyna or Jinky says something in vent and 2. EVERYONE ELSE IS FREAKN SILENT. Those who continually do this, I cordially ask you to stop, you know exactly who you are, or you should. The reason for this is to properly explain how the guild is going to attempt the fight and when you have 3+ different opinions and voices talking over vent or in /raid it gets confusing. There have been times I have had to whisper Jinky and Fixton to ask them what I am doing again because it has been changed 3 times by 3 different people. So end the end let the people who are in charge of the raid, regardless of if its Retro Raid or Progression do there job and explain the fights.



Try working where I work. Communication is pretty much non-existant for an outfit that relies on timing things for the day. This is my opinion, but I think it's gotten better since we first started. Yes, there's still room for improvement, but I have no intentions of running our vent channel with an iron fist. It's not ours as you point out in #2. And it's not me. However, I am in full agreement with your last sentence.

#8248894 Durell wrote:

2. Vent vs /raid- Thanks to Sio we have the ability to use this nice thing called vent. Please use it. There is an understandment that occasionally you cant pop in and use it all the time. However if you can not use it Please refrain from trying to direct the rest of the raid who are using it. This leads to miscommunication like for instance Ulduars raid for the Disarmed achive. Someone in raid chat said Blow CDs after 1 arm was down and everyone in vent was yelling to wait till they re-spawned, however do to the miscommunication he was killed outside the timer so no one in the raid at that moment got the achive. I get it sometimes miscommunication happens however if you can't be in vent for whatever reason, please don't try and give conflicting orders cause it will just get messy and no one wins.



It has largely been my operating philosophy that what is said in Vent takes precedent over what is typed into chat. Especially during a boss fight. I do keep an eye on what is in chat during a fight, though.

#8248894 Durell wrote:

3. Addons- Use them for raids however please keep the recount/shaka numbers outside of /raid or vent. I doubt anyone really cares how great your doing. Good job now why did you die before everyone else? Addons like these are great for gauging yourself and others however if you feel that the other dps is really low please make a comment to them in a private whisper cause you might find out that they came in with say a Safari's Hat on by accident or are still in Healing gear while they are DPSing. Or just that they would rather help out and get the boss down as opposed to being the best that ever was...cause you know thats what pet battles are for.



Yeah, I tend to be guilty of this on occasion, but I just find it funny that Jinky ranks way the heck up there with the Priests in terms of healing. This is not an attempt to embarrass our awesome Healers - they do a really great job for us and I don't envy them at all. I know Recount has had some big changes since I used it last (a long time ago), but Skada has an option to pst a raid member and send the required info to them without annoying anyone else. Maybe Recount does that, too.


#8248894 Durell wrote:

/end rant.

Those are some of the things that I've noticed and have let stew up a little bit and it feels good to get it off my chest.

Anyways good luck on raids and such, on the rare occasion that I end up having a Friday/Saturday night off I'll pop in and help out if needed since you know flex raiding should be on its way soon.


Edit: I don't mean to seem overly rude but I felt that something needed to be said on this subject since I've noticed the communication issues are not only limited to just raid events.



I'm running under the assumption that you'll be very busy with work for a while? If so, I know the feeling.

~ Brix
Make a sincere complement on a really nice mustache, and all of a sudden, she's not your friend anymore. - Marty Feldman.
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#8250651 Aug 06, 2013 at 08:11 AM
211 Posts
#8248894 Durell wrote:


2. Vent vs /raid- Thanks to Sio we have the ability to use this nice thing called vent. Please use it.



I'm guilty of this.

Mostly because I'm out of the habit of using vent all the time, and speaking into vent is a little like speaking into the void... but that's my own weird issue and I will work on it.

Thank you for the etiquette reminders, Coggs. It's a shame you waited until now to say something. :)
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#8251079 Aug 06, 2013 at 09:45 AM
1098 Posts
Technically, some of these have been mentioned before, especially the leading part.

I tend to use /raid a lot, but here's why. I see vent as a means to relay very important information very fast. Well, as fast as server times allow. That's how I was 'raised', so I feel silly chatting on it during explanations and in boss fights.

But, one thing to be said on vent, or any spoken program, people have accents, are hard of hearing, sound can be distorted, etc. If its a very important assignment, or complex, I'll put it in raid. That way, everyone can see clearly what I'm trying to say and can even scroll back up to it if they need to (group assignment for lei Shen!) I'll also use raid chat for less important observations and questions, although I'll usually just whisper these.

I firmly believe that you don't need vent, like you don't really need DBM if you know what you're doing in the fight, because I've done it many times. More often, and pug groups are horrible at this, nothing really important is said anyway. Saying that, I do firmly agree that you should not be saying anything publicly about the strats unless you're either the raid leader or have gotten the green light from them. It's ok to have used a different strat, but let them know via whispers if you think it is truly helpful.

And recount should do the whisper thing. I think they've been able to for awhile. And yes, blood dks are freaken sick. Between their heals and absorbs, they can usually beat my shaman easily on some encounters in tot. It's really depressing sometimes when the disc priest is at 100k, the resto Druid is at 80k, the dk at 65k, and lil ol me struggling at 50k. -.-
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#8251515 Aug 06, 2013 at 11:17 AM
Commanding O...
2103 Posts
Ahem, while I might quibble with the tone of voice in a thread about etiquette the underlying message is generally sound. I would amplify, and add to the discussion as follows...

1. I agree that when the raid leader is explaining the fight strategy, whether in vent or raid chat, polite attention should be given, and interruptions kept to a minimum. Even in the event that you have done the fight multiple times, you should still listen up as we may be deviating from the "standard" strategy in meaningful ways, and for reasons that might not be obvious to you. There should *always* be time set aside for Q&A after the explanation prior to the pull.

1a. Raid leaders should give careful thought to how they will explain the fight *before* the need arises. Try to explain the fight clearly and succinctly. Simply opening up the Dungeon Journal and reading off a litany of the boss' abilities and how much damage they hit for because you are not prepared is rarely productive.

1b. Further, rather than attempt to describe the fight in one rambling twelve minute monologue that no one can remember, I suggest breaking it down into three shorter explanations (one each for Tanks, DPS, and Heals) that focus on that role's "bullet points" (i.e. key responsibilities in each phase, and responses to big threats). This would make it easier for each person to better absorb and remember his/her personal responsibilities, and improve overall team performance on early attempts.

2. Vent should be used for our "serious" raids and heroics. I realize not everyone is comfortable talking on vent or have a microphone properly set up. That is fine, but everyone participating in "serious" guild PvE activities should be in the channel to at least hear the strategy explanations, and direction during the fights.

2a. Vent should not be required during Retro Raid Night or any other "normal" guild events. /Party or /Raid channel should be entirely adequate in these cases. If what is being attempted is so complicated that it will require Vent to achieve, then that should be made clear at the recruiting stage and participation gated accordingly. As a corollary to that, if the raid leader knows that members of the raid/party are not in Vent, then he/she should be relaying all mission critical instruction via text channels and *not* in Vent. It further goes without saying, but I'll say it *anyway* that raid members who are not in Vent are only responsible for obeying instructions from the raid leader that were relayed to them in the *text* channel. What happens in Vent stays in Vent. ;)

2b. The Vent channel is a wonderful thing that we are all very grateful to have. However it should be noted that only a small number of our members have Vent installed. Therefore it should be used where it is needed (Raids and Heroics), and not where it is not. Specifically it should not be used as a "lazy chat channel", as I do not wish to see cliques forming within the guild that separate the people who have Vent from those who dont.

2c. The same restrictions on acceptable levels of language, and controversial topics of discussion in the guild text channels also apply to Vent. I realize that in the excitement, the occasional slip of the tongue can happen. But I can and *will* come down hard on offensive speech in the Vent channel.

3. Addons are part of being prepared for Raid Night. Deadly Boss Mods (or similar addon) should be required on all "serious" guild PvE events. While not required a good Meter addon (Recount or Skada) is strongly recommended, as they can provide useful information on your personal performance and help you make improvements. Additionally a Threat measurement tool of one form or another is also strongly recommended for all members regardless of role.

3a. I agree that gratuitous use of the Report abilities of meters is generally in bad form. Use your meter to help you improve your own personal performance, and let the raid leader deal with any performance issues of the other raid members. Thats why they make the big bucks. ;)

- Forbs
"For Gnomeregan!"



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#8251522 Aug 06, 2013 at 11:18 AM
980 Posts
#8250651 Pippannelle wrote:

#8248894 Durell wrote:


2. Vent vs /raid- Thanks to Sio we have the ability to use this nice thing called vent. Please use it.



I'm guilty of this.

Mostly because I'm out of the habit of using vent all the time, and speaking into vent is a little like speaking into the void... but that's my own weird issue and I will work on it.

Thank you for the etiquette reminders, Coggs. It's a shame you waited until now to say something. :)


Nah I get where you're coming from it can feel a bit weird I was more commenting on those who don't use it for listening at the very least.


Try working where I work. Communication is pretty much non-existant for an outfit that relies on timing things for the day. This is my opinion, but I think it's gotten better since we first started. Yes, there's still room for improvement, but I have no intentions of running our vent channel with an iron fist. It's not ours as you point out in #2. And it's not me. However, I am in full agreement with your last sentence.



I didn't mean run it with an iron first or anything I just feel that is completely rude to talk over someone when instructions are being given. Since as I said you end up leaving others out of the loop. Of course if you are talking to loud that you give someone else a migraine after they turn you down thats another matter altogether.

It has largely been my operating philosophy that what is said in Vent takes precedent over what is typed into chat. Especially during a boss fight. I do keep an eye on what is in chat during a fight, though.


To be honest I my comment was directed at a certain individual without naming any names. I will often type things into raid over speaking in vent for various reasons. On this bit I was more getting after someone who tried to lead the raid in /raid while not being in vent which lead to a massive communication issue. I would assume this individual would agree that whats in vent takes precedent over /raid but at this point they weren't even in vent to have a clue about what was going on.


Yeah, I tend to be guilty of this on occasion, but I just find it funny that Jinky ranks way the heck up there with the Priests in terms of healing. This is not an attempt to embarrass our awesome Healers - they do a really great job for us and I don't envy them at all. I know Recount has had some big changes since I used it last (a long time ago), but Skada has an option to pst a raid member and send the required info to them without annoying anyone else. Maybe Recount does that, too.


I think everyone has at one point or another. However I'm just saying keep it to yourself, unless its asked "who are the top X DPS," then just mention the names but keep the #s to yourself. Ive said it before for me the best "DPS" meter is often Did we kill the boss? Why or Why not? Then 2 Did I die? If so from what? After answering those two questions I often have a rough idea on a personal level what I need to improve on.

I'm running under the assumption that you'll be very busy with work for a while? If so, I know the feeling.


Yes and No. The whole story is our past supervisor got a better job doing Refrigeration/ HVAC work and I've worked at this place for 5 years. So I thought why not apply for his position. Ended up getting it, however it means my schedule changes from Sat/Sun mornings and Monday- Wednesday nights to Tuesday through Saturday nights from about 12.30-9 ST. give or take. So potentially if you guys are going a bit later in the night on Saturday night I might be able to come once Flex raids come out and such. However I'm not really expecting it too much.


All in all I agree with most of what Sverra said, this whole rant deal was written with a few people in mind, that have for me made Raiding with the rest of you guys more frustrating than the fun as it was before. So since I would no longer be a regular I thought wth I'll just say what I feel needs to be said.
"What is this world twisted?" ~LVG
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#8251630 Aug 06, 2013 at 11:40 AM
980 Posts
Ahem, while I might quibble with the tone of voice in a thread about etiquette the underlying message is generally sound. I would amplify, and add to the discussion as follows...


I can rewrite it so its in a dull monotone however I doubt it would have the same impact or poignancy.

At risk of derailing the thread emotion or lack of it is the reason that Spock or anyone like him are my least favorite characters in stories. Incidentally that's probably why there is friction between Light and Forbs IC. Since he views Forbs as proof that gnomes deceased from robots, and I suspect Forbs views him as a hot head who has spend to much time with the Tall Folk.
"What is this world twisted?" ~LVG
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#8252219 Aug 06, 2013 at 01:49 PM
Commanding O...
2103 Posts
#8251630 Durell wrote:


I can rewrite it so its in a dull monotone however I doubt it would have the same impact or poignancy.


That depends on the strength of your arguments. Emotional content will convey to people how passionate you are about something, but passion alone will not convince them that you are right.

#8251630 Durell wrote:

Incidentally that's probably why there is friction between Light and Forbs IC. Since he views Forbs as proof that gnomes deceased from robots, and I suspect Forbs views him as a hot head who has spend to much time with the Tall Folk.


Possibly, however I will mention that Forbs is not devoid of emotion. Quite the contrary. However her Rillie Bentspring side tries to keep her emotions hidden from others because they make her feel weak, vulnerable, and not at all like the hero she is pretending to be. While her Forbidra side is much more manipulative and sees the emotions of others as a tool she can use to control them.

And I think you dont give the Spock character enough credit. He was a half-breed. Vulcan father, and Human mother. In the beginning he saw his Human heritage as a weakness and attempted to exorcise his emotional demons, embrace cool logic, and become a "true" Vulcan like his father. But time and again his intuitive, emotional, and illogical friend Jim that shows him humanity's true strength. In the end he embraces both halves of his heritage and becomes something greater than either.

- Forbs
"Not chess Mr. Spock...poker!" - The Corbomite Maneuver
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#8252662 Aug 06, 2013 at 03:17 PM
Ensign
426 Posts
My personal view on vent is that is an awesome tool. I personally believe that everyone should take advantage of it. That being said, I know some people don't have the system requirements, etc. Should it be required, not necessarily. For things that require little to no coordination, absolutely not. But, if you're trying to coordinate a large group of people, toward a certain goal, quick communication is often the difference between getting the boss down (current content) or the achievement you want or not.

In my view, it is way easier to explain things by talking. The main reason why is that it's quicker. Typing takes a while, then someone is presented with a wall of text to read. If other people are also typing, that wall of text goes by pretty quick...especially when we do what we do when standing around, using /say or other emotes, etc. And, while I'm busy typing, then someone asks a question, and it can get very disjointed very quickly.

In addition, even with DBM, unless there's a big flashing warning on the screen, many people don't pay attention to a lot of the ability timers that it provides for a given encounter. It doesn't necessarily have to be incumbent upon every raid member to watch those, mostly just the raid leader. But, giving a call out in vent is a lot easier than having to stop dps/heals/tanking in order to type out a raid warning so that people get a textual description. You can compare that to a GPS giving you directions...sure, the information is there for you to look at, but it's a lot easier when there's a voice reminding you that your left turn is coming up soon.
"You win again gravity!" -Futurama
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#8252820 Aug 06, 2013 at 03:55 PM
1098 Posts
I have to agree with Forbs on the tone. There are times when you need to be blunt, but its usually not in a public manner on the forums. And before anyone misunderstands my stance, I have used all sorts of communications, from private whispers to calling someone out specifically in the middle of the raid to get my point across. It all has its place, but you have to recognize when it is.

Everyone has their own views and opinions, yet it's vital that everyone is on the same page when trying to work as a group. And that's why it's super important that the raid leader be given full authority to decide, within guild policy and guidelines, on what the raid needs.

It's the RL's responsibility to make sure the raid is equipped for the content they are to tackle, to know the material, and to be able to decide on what methods to use. Some of these can't be made until just prior. But that's why you place someone you trust to be able to handle those moments.

The RL will decide how best to communicate their goals and views to the group. If someone can't follow that, it's their responsibility to make sure they get the info they need from the RL. What that means, really, is that if you're going to do something slightly different than the group, then you need to put in extra effort to make sure you're working with the group. A well informed RL, with the help of the group, can make sure compromises and needs are met.

And my own personal opinion on preparation, from experience, is that it's 100 times more helpful and considerate if everyone has done perhaps 10 minutes worth of looking up what they need to do. If I can focus purely on the strategy, which a good raid leader will tailor to groups strengths, the encounter tends to go well. When I have to take even more time to teach individual people their roles, it just sucks up the time and it leads to confusion.
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#8253320 Aug 06, 2013 at 06:11 PM · Edited 9 years ago
Commanding O...
2103 Posts
I agree with you about preparation. I think showing up to raid current content without having at least looked once at the strategy videos we always have linked on the site is inconsiderate to the other people youre raiding with. Youre subjecting them to repair bills while you learn things by wiping...things you might have easily learned from the video.

I myself have a terribly slow connection to the point where I have to wait five seconds to download three seconds of video, then wait five seconds more etc. Its painful, but I still manage to watch the video of the current fight we're working on.

- Forbs
"For Gnomeregan!"
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#8253352 Aug 06, 2013 at 06:20 PM
980 Posts
#8253320 Forbs wrote:

I agree with you about preparation. I think showing up to raid current content without having at least looked once at the strategy videos we always have linked on the site is inconsiderate to the other people youre raiding with. Youre subjecting them to repair bills while you learn things by wiping...things you might have easily learned from the video.

I myself have a terribly slow connection to the point where I have to wait five seconds to download three seconds of video, then wait five seconds more etc. Its painful, but I still manage to watch the video of the current fight we're working on.

- Forbs
"For Gnomeregan!"



Sounds like someone needs to change to a different Internet provider.
"What is this world twisted?" ~LVG
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#8255058 Aug 07, 2013 at 04:51 AM
Ensign
398 Posts
About the tone, that's me. :)

And i'm not apologizing for it. Truth be told: i am utterly ~sick~ of the recount posters that need to show everyone hoe great they are doing / how bad someone else is doing. If you aren't the RL, you have absolutely no business posting any of that info. Nor do you have any business asking for it. You want that info? GET THE ADD-ON. Your system won't take it because you lack system resources? Ask for the info in private. Honestly, the RL should already have the add-on, and if not, again, in private.

The underlying attitude to show off or show others out is one (but just one) of the big reasons i don't play anymore, i am past sick of this stupid "DPS competition" when the only thing that matters is getting the boss down.

But anyways... standing down, now.
Beebeep!
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#8256143 Aug 07, 2013 at 09:38 AM
Commanding O...
2103 Posts
#8253352 Durell wrote:



Sounds like someone needs to change to a different Internet provider.



Yes I very much do. When I moved here however I had only two choices for internet. A decently priced and decently performing DSL from the phone company, or an expensive cable package that would have me paying for TV service and "premium" channels that I would never watch.

However over the last couple years the price of my DSL has risen and its quality has dramatically decreased, particularly after it rains (which thankfully in southern california is not often). However a couple of weeks ago I found a flyer on my door for a new cable provider offering internet at a rock bottom price. I suspect there is fine print involved but I'm going to check it out, and may take the risk as I've about had it with my DSL provider. I dont see how I could do any worse.

- Forbs
"For Intertubes!!"
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#8277746 Aug 11, 2013 at 10:05 PM
Ensign
426 Posts
"You win again gravity!" -Futurama
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